Here are some more additional problems that arise if one believes that the Torah was written by Moshe.
Eating Manna: The mun (manna) according to Judaism was a magical white substance that God gave to the Hebrews in the desert which acted as a substitute for food. It had the magical abilitiy to taste like any food you wanted it to taste as. This is how Jewish people describe the manna, there is no good explaination to what the manna is from the Torah itself. Thus, the Jewish idea of manna must be derived from oral tradition and the commentaries. This is all unimportant for us in context of deciding whether or not Moshe wrote the Torah. Go to Exodus 16:35, "The children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land (Canaan) inhabited". There is a clear problem with such a verse as we already raised in our past analysis. Namely, how can Moshe write about how the Hebrews continue to eat manna until they arrive in the land of Canaan if Moshe died before every reaching the land of Canaan? Thus, whoever wrote this passage must have been living many years after the death of Moshe to narrate this event.
Kings from Edom: Chaphter 36 in Genesis is an interesting chapter because not only does it again challenge that Moshe is the author of the Torah but it puts a big estimate on the author who wrote this passage. In particular look at Genesis 36:31, "And these are the kings which reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel". Jewish history says that after Moshe died, and then Yehoshua died, the Israelites were ruled by the era of the Judges, then this era ended and Israel began to have kings. The meaning of "before any king reigned over Israel" implies that this must have been written at least two kings past. The first king was Saul. If this was written during the time of Saul then it should read "before the king reinged over Israel". Therefore, at least two kings must have past if one is to write, "before any king reinged over Israel". The second king was David. This is approximiately 400 years after the death of Moshe. Thus, we get a sense of a big estimate of years that spanned before Moshes and the authorship of this passage in Genesis.
King of Bashan: Here is another big estimate to the time between Moshe supposedly lived and the authorship of the Torah. Og, the king of Bashan, was a giant (in case you are not familar giants exist in the world of the Torah). Deuteronomy 3:11, describes his bed and how large it was. It also mentions that it is located in Rabbah. The problem here is that Moshe could not have known that it is located in Rabbah. Moshe never took the city of Rabbah. Rabbah is not conquered and taken over until Second Samuel 12: 26-29 under king David. Just like the above observation about the kings of Edom we have a similar situation with this passage in Deuteronomy. We see that the author of this passage must have lived many hundreds of years after Moshe.
These examples that have been brought forth are just a few examples of an entire myraid of examples that point to the Torah being written a long time after Moshe supposedly lived. Thus, we see that Moshe cannot be the author of the Torah. We can also ask the question of who then wrote the Torah and when it was written. This is a more difficult question to ask. No one really knows the answer to this question, but various answers have been formulated. A detailed study of this is answered by the Documentary Hypothesis. Spinoza himself has made the case that the Torah was a collection of passages written by many different authors. He even argues that only a tiny precentage of these could be assumed to have been writen by Moshe (assuming that there was such a guy that lived). Later these collections were put together between the 3rd and 2nd century BC by some Jewish scholar. Spinoza makes a guess that this may have been Ezra. Whatever the real origins of Torah really are is not as important as that it was not written by Moshe (who recieved it from God). Once we understand this we see a serious problem in Judaism.
Monday, February 15, 2010
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> Whatever the real origins of Torah really are is not as important as that it was not written by Moshe (who recieved it from God).
ReplyDeleteI don't understand. Your "proofs" are bits of Torah that demonstrate that Moshe could not have possibly known that information. But if he received it from God (as you yourself say), then why does that matter? God wrote/dictated it!
"I don't understand. Your "proofs" are bits of Torah that demonstrate that Moshe could not have possibly known that information.":
ReplyDeleteI demonstrate that the idea that Moshe wrote the entire draw does not make sense by reading the text itself. There are clues within the text that suggest that he cannot possibly be the author.
Exactly. So did you disprove your opening question, or did you disprove it? I think you proved how it must not be Moshe, which is exactly in line with Jewish belief and one of the 13 principles of faith, that God wrote/dictated it. So why not conclude that God could have written/dictated it? Why do you jump to the conclusion that it must have been written later? Oh right, because you already rejected God. But then this is a bad proof for someone who already believes in God.
ReplyDelete"Exactly. So did you disprove your opening question, or did you disprove it? I think you proved how it must not be Moshe, which is exactly in line with Jewish belief and one of the 13 principles of faith, that God wrote/dictated it. So why not conclude that God could have written/dictated it? Why do you jump to the conclusion that it must have been written later? Oh right, because you already rejected God. But then this is a bad proof for someone who already believes in God.":
ReplyDeleteJudaism says that Moshe wrote the Torah. I show that this does not make sense from the text alone. Therefore, the Torah cannot be written at the time of Moshe. I raise questions to why you cannot believe in the Mosaic authorship of the Torah. That is why I reject it.
Show me where in Judaism that Moshe wrote it without divine guidance.
ReplyDelete"Show me where in Judaism that Moshe wrote it without divine guidance.":
ReplyDeleteI am not the one who has to show anything. I am not the one making extraordinary claims. You are. I am showing how it is unlikely that Moshe was the author of the Torah.
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to make an argument. /s
ReplyDeleteIt isn't unlikely that Moshe wrote it if you believe that Moshe had divine guidance when writing the bible. So your argument is bunk to a religious Jew.
http://www.mesora.org/13principles.html
> "Principle VIII. That the Torah is from heaven [God]
And this is that you believe that all of this Torah that was given by Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, that it is all from the mouth of God. Meaning that it was received by him entirely from God. And it is not known how Moses received it except by Moses himself, peace be upon him, that it came to him. That he was like a stenographer that you read to him and he writes all that is told to him: all the events and dates, the stories, and all the commandments...."
This is what Jews are meant to believe. So your argument that Moshe did not write the Torah based upon the fact that he could not possibly have known that information is refuted. The information was given to him by God, according to Jewish belief.
I know that is what religious Jews belief and that is why they are stupid for believing in that. If Moshe knew all the Torah then he would have not sinned at the rock because he knew what the Torah would say. In a similar manner Yakov would not think that Yosef was dead because he knew the Torah already.
ReplyDeleteI know that Jewish people believe that Moshe had all Torah knowledge as did Yakov. I heard this before many times. But it makes them stupid. Because it leads to conclusions which do not make any sense.
Be serious with me. If you picked up a book and it claimed it was an autobiography of somebody's life, but it mentioned how he died and was buried then your reason will automatically reject this book as an autobiography because you know dead people do not write books. But when it comes to the Torah this basic concept is rejected in matter of faith.
You can keep your faith to yourself if it means I have to dumb myself down.