This is a follow-up post to my previous one. I have a big problem with nationalism. I am an individualist. I judge the virtues of people based only on their accomplishments. I could not care less who they are. Children are not responsible for the sins of their parents, nor do children inherit the merits of their fathers. Children are responsible for what they do themselves. People are not responsible from what nation they come from. A German cannot be condemned for the evils of Nazis. Even a German alive in Nazi Germany cannot be condemned for the evils of the Nazis. Because he can be against Nazism himself. A person must be virtuously judged for what he did himself. Not his origin or nationality or whether he has a penis. This is exactly why I despise nationalism. It is a form of collectivism. We put a giant group of people into some group and we judge the virtues of these people on the group they come from.
Part of my problem with Judaism was when I was religious is the nationalistic aspect of it. I was required, by Jewish law, to love Jewish people more than non-Jewish people. What a repulsive thought against the intellect! No. I refuse to lower my intelligence by this sort of bronze-age thinking.
What surprises me is that there are a lot of secular Jewish people who still follow a form of Jewish nationalism. I can understand why religious people embrace this form of nationalism, but I cannot understand why non-religious Jews still can embrace this form of nationalism. I was speaking with a gay secular Jewish guy online. The fact that he is gay is irrelevant but I like to be descriptive. What we were doing together online, well, I leave that up for your imaginations. It could have been simulated futt bucking or an actual intelligent conversation, that is for you to figure out. So the topic of Israel came up. He told me how much he loves Israel and all the nationalistic non-sense. He also mentioned that he has a special connection to Jewish people because they are like an extended family. He asks me why I do not support Israel. I gave him my reasons and he still was unable to understand. He kept on telling me how Jewish people are like my extended family and I must, as a Jew, not necessarily religious, support them no matter what. Whatever, this really bothered me. The point is that there are secular Jews who really think this way. This is the kind of Jewish nationalism I really hate.
It is time to end all forms of nationalism. Nationalism is just like racism, just extended to whole nations instead.
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>It is a form of collectivism. We put a giant group of people into some group and we judge the virtues of these people on the group they come from.
ReplyDeleteYes some people do that but that is not a necessary result of nationalism. One has to be able to distinguish between the group and the individual and judge each person on an individual basis. However groups still exist and they are a inseparable part of our existence people make groups and there's nothing you can change about it.
>I was required, by Jewish law, to love Jewish people more than non-Jewish people.
I agree with your objection to making it a law but don't you and most people engage in such "primitive thinking" when you put your family or friends before others or do you argue that that is a completely different form of grouping?
>It is time to end all forms of nationalism. Nationalism is just like racism, just extended to whole nations instead.
I disagree completely. Nationalism is pride of one's people. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and it is natural to want to group yourself with people who share a common cultural and historical experiences. Can racism result from nationalism? Yes! Does that make nationalism inherently wrong. No I don't think so at all.
You don't need to be racist to be Zionist (Although the UN seems to disagree). IF you are both then in my book you have created a nasty aberration of what I feel is (or maybe was) a beautiful and meaningful movement.
I've been thinking about this issue myself lately, but isn't the logical consequence of this thinking that one shouldn't be allowed to care more for one's close family than they would strangers?
ReplyDeleteAlso, can you explain how you understand the concept of patriotism as opposed to nationalism?
Thanks.
"I agree with your objection to making it a law but don't you and most people engage in such "primitive thinking" when you put your family or friends before others or do you argue that that is a completely different form of grouping?":
ReplyDeleteYes. Loving family just because they are related to you is the same kind of primitive thinking just more specific. I wrote a follow up post on it. Not friends. Because friendship is the result of judging individuals based on their virtues, not blood relations.
"Nationalism is pride of one's people. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and it is natural to want to group yourself with people who share a common cultural and historical experiences."
It is stupid to be proud in "your people". Be proud of your own accomplishments. What have you actually achieved in your life. Being Jewish or being American or being White or anything like that an being proud if dumb. Any retard can be an American or a Jew. That is no accomplishment. Just an accident of birth. George Carlin, on this, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MktlfjFb3j0 ). Being proud of your nation is just like white people who are proud they are white, or black people who are proud they are black, (like the NAACP), and these people are racists. Not the bad kind of racism that wants world domination, but the more passive kind of racism. Pride is a fallacy and it should be avoided.
"I've been thinking about this issue myself lately, but isn't the logical consequence of this thinking that one shouldn't be allowed to care more for one's close family than they would strangers? "
Avi, read my new post on this topic.
"Also, can you explain how you understand the concept of patriotism as opposed to nationalism?":
Patriotism and nationalism often go together. But they can be different. Thomas Paine, my favorite founder, once said, "it is the duty of the patriot to defend the people from the government". Thomas Jefferson said, "the tree of liberty must be refresed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants". The meaning of "patriot" here is very different from "nationalist". Yes, I do think of myself as an American patriot. But I hate the United States, despise it, love America though. Because America is an idea. A concept. An rebellion against authority, no kings, no rulers, the people should be in charge. America is not a piece of land or a group of people. It is an idea. And I strongly stand by this idea. Therefore, in that sense, I do think of myself as an American patriot but a hater of the United States and an anti-nationalist.
>It is stupid to be proud in "your people".
ReplyDeleteGuilty. But don't forget that emotion has its role in life too. I can't help being proud even if it is stupid. Is my pride harmful? No. Is is real? Yes its a REAL emotion even if it is a result of conditioning and upbringing etc.
>Pride is a fallacy and it should be avoided.
We aren't robots we don't only care about things which "aren't fallacies" . True one can't make statements about empirical facts BASED on ones emotions and expect them to be right (Which is my problem with Orthodox Judaism) but emotions, if you have them, are very real and even if they tell you nothing about logic or empirical reality are still worth enjoying.
Fallacies are fine as long as they don't become the basis of a reputedly logical argument or system.
Being rational is important but why do you think that romanticism is complete trash when it is operating within its own "magisterium"
" if you have them, are very real and even if they tell you nothing about logic or empirical reality are still worth enjoying. "
ReplyDeleteEnjoy your emotions, but do not be proud of them. I never tell people not to enjoy themselves. I am an immature person who likes to connect everything to vaginas and penises. Certainly I am enjoying myself. I enjoy FIFA. Germany is my favorite team. I get so happy when they win. And be even more happier if they win FIFA. But I understand that some things people cannot be proud off, like where they are born. If you love Judaism, love it, enjoy it, study it, but you cannot be proud of it because you are were born one.
Nationalism is a result of the Darwinian process of national selection. The source of nationalism is competition over resources. The cohesiveness of a group enhances their ability to effectively compete and thus is an important factor in the group's survival.
ReplyDeleteThe question remains, however, why an American Jew, should have nationalistic Jewish feelings, as he personally is not competing for any resources such as land or water in the middle east.
One possiblity is that his Jewish identification is simply an anachronism which will die out over time.
The other possibility is that psychologically, the very individualism of American society actually pushes people to seek out a smaller subgroup to declare their affiliation. Individualism is lonely, and humans, having for most of their evolutionary history lived among small groups, seek a smaller subgroup to give htem a sense of belonging and identity.
"Nationalism is a result of the Darwinian process of national selection.":
ReplyDeleteNo it is not. The nationalists down south do not think to that to themselves. The black panthers do not follow this line of reasoning. Their reasoning is very simple. "I am proud of the way I am born, and in the country I was born, therefore I love this country more than all others, and so US is number one, all the other countries are secondary". That is exactly how nationalists think.
Exactly! aren't those the type of people to support the US efforts to commandeer the resources of other nations?
ReplyDelete"Exactly! aren't those the type of people to support the US efforts to commandeer the resources of other nations?":
ReplyDeleteHow exactly is that Darwinian? I have no idea why you even bring Darwin in here. What does Darwin have anything to do with nationalism? Selecting a nation you like more than another nation is artifical selection. Natural selection happens naturally. The moment people select what they like other something else, that is no longer natural but artifical. Besides, I still do not understand why you even mention Darwin in the first place.
This is according to the theory that social processes follow a similar evolutionary path to strictly natural processes, ie they evolve because they confer some survival advantage, or they die out because they cease to confer that advantage ie a religion demanding celibacy of its adherents.
ReplyDelete